Steve Lewis: Welcome to Wiser headquarters in Farringdon, very super cool trendy office. They're our sponsors of the Hire Kind podcast. Hire Kind prevailing sentiment is in and around the the candidate journey, making sure the candidates aren't ghosted, they're respected in the process. We care about that. We wanna make sure technology enables you to do that. We have a number of different TA executives coming on and telling the stories of what they've done at their businesses and their relative experience over their career tenure as well. So, for me, I'm delighted to have Eloise with me today from Okta. I've worked with Eloise in the past at LinkedIn, which is just over the road. We can see it from here. And Okta's just over the road down there as well, so it's not like we had to come far for this. But it would be great if you could introduce yourself. Let me know and, everyone watching this about your span of control and what you're on the hook for at Okta, and your day to day in and around town, please.
Eloise Walsh: Oh, thank you for having me, and it's so nice to spend time with you after all these years. Yes. But yeah. So I am Eloise. I head up the recruitment team at Okta. So I'm the senior director of recruiting, for the EMEA region. For Okta, like, maybe it'd be nice to do a little intro on that. So if you're not aware of who we are, we are the company who work to free anyone to use any technology. So, really interesting space given, you know, like, I'm sure you're the same. You really care about neutrality of the technology that you use, and you really, really care about your, your security and your identity. And so we we work with companies like, like a Deloitte, Mars, FedEx. We we, have have as a customer. You may well have interacted with us, logging in this morning at work, into all of your applications, but, also, you may well have just, you know, jumped on your Peloton, turned on your sonars, you know, like, all these different use cases that we have across, multiple different, industry sectors, and just this enormous addressable market that we're going after of, like, eighty billion. So it's, really interesting times. And I've been at Okta for eight years. So I've seen it really evolve into something quite incredible. And we talk a lot about building something truly iconic, and I think we're definitely on a journey whilst acknowledging that we definitely don't have it all figured out. But
Steve Lewis: I love that. There's so much to do every day is is a new challenge. Right? And I suppose those eight years have not been the same job or the same role and
Eloise Walsh: and responsibility. Not. No. No. It's definitely changed a lot during that time.
Steve Lewis: So we live in a zero trust world where if you want to bolt on new tech, we have to go through infosec, make sure everybody's happy. Mhmm. So you are the kind of the the trusted connective tissue so you can do that and free people up from using what they want, where they want, yeah, with with you being the kind of the that that the arms around it all from what you just Yeah. And some pretty cool brand names that I just heard as well that I
Eloise Walsh: dropped in. Yeah. And and, like, just security people's digital identity. You know? Like, our identity is everything to us. And so Yes. The big cyberattacks that we hear about, are no longer, like, targeted on specific companies, but more on individuals. And you don't wanna be the person that that's centered on, whether that's in your work environment,
Steve Lewis: but
Eloise Walsh: also in your own personal environment. You know? Like, you wanna be able to, you know, book your flight as an example and feel like that's a secure process. Like, you don't want your data breached, or your identity compromised in any way. So, Optus is kind of the glue to your point of all of those experiences.
Steve Lewis: And we come from a world of professional identity, your LinkedIn profile. Yes. Right? And the early days, I was in twenty eleven. I was there for eight years, but I saw what the business I joined wasn't the business I left when Microsoft came in. And it was very interesting to have that debate about who owns my data, and is my professional and my personal, like, is is is Facebook and Instagram is like my my my barbecue in the back garden, whereas LinkedIn is my business lunch. It was quite interesting to see how's that emerged, how kind of identity became something you could own and control a little bit more.
Eloise Walsh: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. And I yeah. So my point earlier, like, I think people really value that neutrality of Okta. So we are a neutral platform. Other vendors would be looking for you to, use their applications, whereas we work with companies that want to use best of breed, technologies and connect all of those into your, you know, complete infrastructure. So, yeah, really interesting.
Steve Lewis: And a certain caliber of person that you're after as well. Mhmm. Let's let's look at, the talent attraction, what the table stakes are in terms of the way they turn up, what you need from them. You you've got, in your wheelhouse quite broad oversight for for for the business across the EMEA region, and I suppose that's slightly different from other parts of the world, but you share and collaborate on best practice. And and and and you you you talk about where you're getting traction, where you're getting friction and headwind. Give me a kind of an overview of, the the the the the the kind of the not what keeps you up at night, but what's on your if you wanna do that. But what's on your radar in terms of things that need to be solved in the next sort of fiscal year?
Eloise Walsh: So I think the strategy that we've had for this year and, actually, the previous year was very much centered around, you know, building balanced organization. It's really important to us. We're also looking at the hiring experience. And with both of those those, kind of big pillars, I think consistency of what we're looking for is really important, but also the the interview processes themselves and and how we measure the the candidate, experience.
Steve Lewis: Okay. So that's, in terms of the the the consistency, you can measure the metrics, and you can get better with those metrics. And looking at the processes process, you can own control if it's structured. You've got some sort of governance over that, which is great. So you you've got a current state, and you've got a place you wanna get to. And metrics along the way are how you'll get in there, I imagine. So if you took think about the the the candidates that are coming through, how do you work with the business to establish what type of, process should be in place to make sure the candidate has the best chance to show her abilities and and get the role that she deserves?
Eloise Walsh: Yeah. That's that's a really good question, actually. And I think that's a big part of the hiring experience work that we've been, focused on for quite a long time now. So where we really started with it was empowering the recruiters with the knowledge that they need to be able to run a process that, enables us to effectively, assess people.
Steve Lewis: Okay.
Eloise Walsh: And so, we invested, I think it was, oh gosh, last year before last, in recruiting toolbox training, which is really, which is really great. It's an external company. We, worked with them to run workshops over a couple of days and then some facilitate some, kind of virtual sessions too. And that was really around how recruiters can show up as talent advisers. And there's some kind of critical components of that, which is around making sure that, operationally, our process runs efficiently and their role within that. So, there will always be a hiring, strategy meeting. And in that strategy meeting, that will probably take you, Steve, as the hiring manager, a good hour of your time to really arm us with the information around the level of the role, the profile, what you're looking for, but critically get to the bottom of the work that that person will be doing.
Steve Lewis: Okay.
Eloise Walsh: And so, Who
Steve Lewis: owns that? Your team calibrating with the hire the intake and the hiring manager? Okay. Yeah.
Eloise Walsh: The two together.
Steve Lewis: Okay. Well, you cocreate it then together as to what what you're after.
Eloise Walsh: Yeah. Yeah. So you cocreate that. And then within that, you're building a sourcing plan. Like, what is you know, how are you going to collaborate together to go out and find the very best talent? But also then how are you gonna assess the talent, and what is it you're assessing for. K. And this is the bit, I guess, that's quite interesting for you is around, like, you know, each, interviewer should have a purpose. And in that, you know, their purpose should have a specific focus area, a competency that they're looking to assess Okay.
Steve Lewis: So that
Eloise Walsh: you get well rounded view of a specific candidate when, you know, when they come in. And then I think so once we've kind of completed that stage, then you have an alignment meeting. And so everybody that's gonna be on that interview panel is in the room together or virtually to talk about the role and their role that they play within that. You know, maybe challenge each other. Maybe Steve thinks that Eloise is mad. She should be, you know, looking for something else in this particular hire in her team. But then, you know, that's the time to get all of that misalignment out of the way.
Steve Lewis: Like that.
Eloise Walsh: So it doesn't happen be after you've interviewed. So, you know, as a hiring manager, I might decide that I wanna hire hire you. I think you're great, but, actually, my boss might think, no. You don't need that kind of profile. You this is the work this person needs to do.
Steve Lewis: It's good that you sit down, like, a dress rehearsal, and you read through and who's gonna play what part and ask what question. Yeah. I really like that. I was responsible for executive engagement at LinkedIn the program with our execs matching up to what the promises were made and then carrying out on the larger strategic accounts. And it was like, the notes should be open, honest, transparent. There's no hidden agenda. So the notes I write for our exec should be shown to their side as well. Yeah. So, you know, to get everything out on the table and be very honest about where the gap is from current state to where you wanna get to and what candidate might be needed to do that is quite a grown up way of looking at it because it's showing vulnerabilities as well about current state and saying, well, we're not quite there yet.
Eloise Walsh: Yeah. Yeah. And getting different perspectives from you know, you want a cross functional panel of people that are gonna interview these these candidates of and so I think doing that work, that alignment upfront to your point is so, so critical. I'd say it's probably the most critical point of the process to get right because then everybody knows the role that they play. And so the worst thing you can ever do as an interviewer is turn up and not know what you're there for.
Steve Lewis: We've all done it. Either. Yeah. I mean, I don't want okay. So you get given a small brief. You're in. What question do I ask? Actually, I quite like it when you get briefed and to say, look. Dial down on this. Yes. This is the question area. Don't ask any fancy questions. How many golf balls on a seven four seven? None of that stuff. I see. And and and, actually, the dynamic in the room changes a bit where everyone's got a role to play. Mhmm. And if you know that you're asking for a reason and you know what to look good for and a good answer Yeah. Does that calibration that you have with the hiring manager to go to what questions to ask and what to look for in an answer so then you can say, look. If they hit on that, they're precedable. I know you've got some sort of framework, haven't you, about that you give people on those sorts of areas.
Eloise Walsh: Yes. Yeah. So, we do. So certain groups are a little bit further along than others. So I would say for our sales team, we did, a huge amount of work, to identify, like, the competencies that made our top performers the top performers Okay. On a global level, and we built that into an AE excellence profile. So that AE excellence profile is, excellence profile is, part of all of our people processes within the sales organization. But, critically, we built that into our interview process, right, because the two should align.
Steve Lewis: Totally.
Eloise Walsh: And so with that, what we did was break that into, questions, specific focus areas. So there's three excellence factors, five competencies. And then what we've done is break those, three excellence factors down with, like, specific questions that you can go in, and ask, and then also, you know, like, example behaviors that you'd be looking for so you can kinda figure out.
Steve Lewis: You're you're you're kinda pioneering with this, so it's too early to tell for some of this stuff. Right? So I think as it emerges, you can start to bring that through to how they're onboarded, how they're performance managed. Mhmm. The internal kind of globe, mobility and talent transformation to see, actually, we did that there. They're they're staying longer. They're more loyal. They're higher performers. There will be a so what to the end of what you've done up here. Yeah. But but I think your culture value tenants, they were April this year. Right? We're we're now in in, October. Mhmm. So it sounds like you're you're iterating and you're you're trying things out, and then you're committing yourself to the process to see what impact it has on on on the any early signs? Anything you could share with us about how it's going?
Eloise Walsh: So I think for the AE side of things, I think one of the pieces of work that we've literally just started looking at was like, okay. How you know, who are, like, I'll say, top twenty performers in the region? And let's just take a deep dive and look at what kind of interview process did that person have. Yeah. When did they join? Have they kind of progressed internally, which is, of course, the the best, you know, source of hire or internal hires? But also, you know, critically, like, who interviewed them? What did that look like? You know? And even when you look at the quality of the interview feedback, you know, what was that like? So and what company did they join from? Like, what can we learn about those trends, and start applying to our interview process
Steve Lewis: and going forward? Do you have the full data, like, you can interrogate in terms of all interviews being recorded, everything being transcribed, and you can search across all of that? Is that the dream?
Eloise Walsh: That's the dream. That's the dream. Yeah. Like, I I am a huge, advocate for consistency. So for me, I don't understand how we could possibly, talk about, you know, being able to mitigate and reduce bias without having consistency in our process. So Yeah. And every every candidate should be walking away with something really factual about, like, why why I was or was not successful.
Steve Lewis: Hundred hundred percent. You know? And it shouldn't be sugarcoated. It's almost like there is a skills gap there. It's tangible. You go away, and you'll get this, and and then you can become the hundred percent interview feedback company. Mhmm. So whilst we were at LinkedIn, we can see them over there, Pat Waters was our CHRO, and she pioneered diversity, inclusion, belonging as an index, DIBS. Yeah. And I know you've actually start to to bring that in to mitigate bias into the actual talent marketing that you do. You've actually got you've got your arms around the the organization in a much wider way than than perhaps you would imagine.
Eloise Walsh: Yeah. I think, one of the things that I've been really impressed with, I guess, is that as a as a team a TA team, we've pulled together the talent marketing function, with DIB and with, like, the talent research team and and bringing that together so it's consistent. Right? And it's like all of our strategy for the year ahead is all centered around making sure that the hiring experiences are brilliant, you know, for everyone, candidates and hiring teams alike, and, you know, that we're always thinking about the quality of hire, but also, like, you know, building a diverse team Yeah. Well represented.
Steve Lewis: And then you you care about the experience for the candidate. You do the NPS at the end. Mhmm. And and also just to make sure that we recognize that this is a team sport. So you've got your talent team. You've got the hiring managers and the candidates, and everybody needs to have a good experience the way through. Yeah. What you mentioned the recruiter toolbox. Did I say our toolkit? Recruiting toolbox. Yeah. Recruiting toolbox, outside company that comes in. What what is in the the practical day in the life of a recruiter? What's in her toolbox to do her job? If you think about the tech stack and how it can help them do their job, what do they have access to? What are they looking at? Data driven metrics, evidence based stuff. What what do you do to help them be successful?
Eloise Walsh: So I think there's a number of different things. I think that training was around empowering them to have some of these conversations, hold hiring managers accountable to their really important role in the process as well as the interview panels. We, have you know, Greenhouse is our ATS Yes. Where we build our interview kits. That's where a lot of this work do happens. I mentioned about the strategy, meeting and the alignment meeting. We've built in a toolkit within Greenhouse to kind of store and have all of that. They're available. We, have beautiful dashboards on Tableau where you can see,
Steve Lewis: you know, great stuff. Mentioned this a couple of times. Very proud of those. Yes. Exactly.
Eloise Walsh: I like them.
Steve Lewis: Because they do what they they need to do.
Eloise Walsh: Yeah. They are cool. And, you know, I think we can, kind of see a lot more beyond just, you know, your usual offer accept rate and number of hires, but more around, your hiring manager net promoter score. Like, how is that looking?
Steve Lewis: Yeah.
Eloise Walsh: Your candidate net promoter score, again, how's that looking? And I think it's really important to bring that to life for people to see, like, you know, the good and the bad of the experiences that we're creating. We could always be, doing better, but it's also a little bit of gold dust when you see somebody who's put in, like, I didn't get the job, but I got great fever. I had the best experience.
Steve Lewis: And that
Eloise Walsh: that means everything. See that. So that and then, of course, we have, like, LinkedIn and LinkedIn insights. We have trialed a number of different, tools as part of our tools, technology and tools steering committee over the last, probably six, seven months. So there's probably more to come there for their wheelhouse.
Steve Lewis: And, of course, AI.
Eloise Walsh: Wanna look
Steve Lewis: at the camera? AI. It's a thing. Right? So it's okay. What's the impact of this? Obviously, we in what you the service you provide to your clients, there are so many ways now to penetrate security, and there's it it's heightened the what the value that you give back to clients. In terms of making it work as a force for good for the recruiter, if you look at the day in the life of a recruiter and and what he or she may do, how has that changed, in your career tenure? Obviously, Okta, LinkedIn, and previous roles, you've had oversight. You've seen it evolve and change. Right? I think you were at Workday and with Rupesh, who's also a guest here as well, and Yahoo, a bit like the companies that Okta works with. You've got a trail of big brands that you can name drop all the way through that you've you've had an effect on. Talk me through how it's evolved so far and where you can perhaps see it going just at a high level and how kind of tech and and AI might help or or hinder if it's, if people are allergic to the precept preconceptions of what they think it's gonna be.
Eloise Walsh: Yeah. So we have trialed, a couple of different tools, as part of that steering committee that I was talking about. We haven't actually launched with anyone as of yet. And I think that we are very conscious, of course, of some of the, bias that AI can produce.
Steve Lewis: It can be confidently diluted, can't it?
Eloise Walsh: It can be confidently diluted. And that's the last thing, of course, that we would want. But I definitely think there are lots of things that we could do. And, actually, I was talking to my boss, Corey, last night about how do we, operate like, take some of the the burden, I guess, away from recruiters and, you know, maybe something like Yeah. What you guys offer around
Steve Lewis: Other services are available to Hire Guide. Yeah. That's correct.
Eloise Walsh: Wait. I did bring that up.
Steve Lewis: Thank you.
Eloise Walsh: And so, I think that, you know, there's definitely more that we could do on that topic. But much to your point about AI, like, I was listening to our CEO, talking about this the other day. Whilst people are frightened of it, it's actually something that can be used for good. So whilst, you know, there are more threats being created because of AI, we are also able to detect a lot more Yeah. Because of it. Like, we can protect our customers in a lot more meaningful way based on behaviors and trends that we're identifying because of AI. So I I I don't I don't think we're reluctant to do anything. I think it's just more that we want to make sure that the tool you know, any tools that we use are the right thing for
Steve Lewis: all the need. And if we tie tighten the focus to TA, whether an AI assistant or agent has a seat at the table and can call out and say, here's my vote. Here's how I score this candidate or not. I mean, that's just up for debate. Right? Yeah. There's a lot of legislation going through at California at the moment about that for its use and purpose, responsible usage. Hire guide is a certified b corporation. Should we care about social impact and doing well by doing good. And it's really important to us that our mission is to transform a billion interviews, and we feel that that that's that's that's a very big challenge that needs to be done because that last part, that final mile is just suboptimal at the moment. Mhmm. A lot of stuff happens unsaid. A lot of the data falls on the floor. The compliance and regulation of, well, show me your workings out. I didn't get the job. I didn't get into the nightclub. What's your door policy? I wanna see how you've made a call on me. I think candidates are gonna become a little bit more muscular in and around being you the company being seen to be doing the right thing as well as doing it.
Eloise Walsh: Yes.
Steve Lewis: Yeah. So I don't know whether moving across do you have a policy where video interviews are recorded if the candidate gives consent and everybody does? Or what what's the kind of the the current thinking around pushing that into the business or whether they're pulling for that sort of stuff?
Eloise Walsh: I haven't heard a pull for it.
Steve Lewis: Okay.
Eloise Walsh: But I definitely don't think that there is anything wrong with having consistency. Like, to your point earlier, I like the consistency of having, that available to you, but, no, we don't we don't have that, as part of our policy today. I I do think there's something interesting that's gonna emerge as we start to look for people coming back in on-site for a lot more interviews.
Steve Lewis: Return to work. Return to office.
Eloise Walsh: Yeah. And I think people there's, like, a real I understand it. Like, people really want to meet with people Yeah. And engage with them. And so as, you know, when we went into, the pandemic, and we worked very dynamically before the pandemic anyway, but when we made that switch to complete virtual interviews, like, our candidate NPS went up big time. And so I was thinking this morning, how does that you know, if we you know, as we move more into, like, face to face interviews, how does that how do we mitigate risk of that happening? Yeah. Yeah. So I I I think
Steve Lewis: it's just And And and also not to compel someone. I mean, it's been in the news recently that one big e retailer, we went to her. This is So mandated it. We're in these really cool offices in Farringdon, Wiser HQ. HQ. They they've got, like, a jungle setting up in the loft if you want some kind of chilled space, and it's all very cool and dynamic here. But there needs to be that social contract. Do you remember Reid Hoffman wrote that book of the alliance
Eloise Walsh: Yeah.
Steve Lewis: To make sure that you always know that that is not given for loyalty. You have to keep earning it on both sides. Uh-huh. I think that return to office should be that you get to get energy from other people solving problems to their side Mhmm. But not compelled to think, you know, it's gonna be mandated in full. There's there's so much debate going around this solar area at the moment, isn't there? Of a talent acquisition, they'll be like, is this hybrid? Is this remote? Is it you know, it's part of it's part of one of the things they they look at now as to what's expected of them. And I've had seen some stuff where it says, you would you would you be okay to come in maybe once or twice a week? And it's all very apologetic.
Eloise Walsh: Yeah. Yeah.
Steve Lewis: And others are like, we we do expect kinda Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday in the office if you can. Yeah. There's a lot of debate about what's right, and I I think I'd love to hear what what what OX's view is on this and also what you're seeing across the industry wider.
Eloise Walsh: Yeah. I think, well, it's clear, like, return to office is a thing. I think it's very, we we, continue to hire where our talent is, like, not where specific offices are. Yeah. But we do have a interest, obviously, of having people come in and collaborate, but meaningful collaboration, like you mentioned. Yes. And I think that's where some companies maybe are not quite, thinking about thinking it through maybe. But yeah. So we, continue to, just wanna hire great people to possibly, Steve. And, you know, some teams have more of a need, like, you know, your early career as an example. You're, just starting off. I can just recall myself in those days. And you need to learn from others around you. Like, that is, you know, a genuine, compelling reason to need to go in and collaborate.
Steve Lewis: Those corridor bumps, those learning opportunities that happen on the on the in
Eloise Walsh: the I mean, I've got some shockers of stories of things that I
Steve Lewis: Please tell us.
Eloise Walsh: No. No. No. I'll save them for after. But, yeah, I definitely think, you know, for early career that it's really important. And then when you're thinking about, like, salespeople, of course, yeah, you want them to to be collaborating with their sales engineering, with, you know, the professional services team Yes. You know, the whole orchestra of folks that help them. But does it need to be mandated? I really don't believe so. No. And I don't think it's the right thing.
Steve Lewis: I think we're we're gonna see the impact of some of these things as they get tried out, and and and then you have your own kind of social contract with your talent and your business as to how it how it works. That certainly seems to be how it's playing through. Let's drill in a little bit to you mentioned early stage talent. Mhmm. And you wanna hire the best high callers high most high caliber people wherever they are. Mhmm. When it when you're further along, if it's a lateral experienced hire, oftentimes, you look at accomplishments. Have they got relatable experience? Have they been somewhere else and done this?
Eloise Walsh: Mhmm.
Steve Lewis: Certainly, the exec search level, the the Shrek firms, it's have you taken a company public through an IPO? There there are certain things that are big boulders, big rocks that people have done. Yeah. If you look at skills being the great leveler and looking at skills for the roles that you need Mhmm. And agreeing that those skills are needed now and how do we anchor to those and interview to those, question and answer guides and scorecards, etcetera, There is a kind of a skills based maturity model, the adoption curve in terms of coming a full skills based organization. Could you give us an idea of whether, Okta is making headway in certain areas on that, is interested in the the way that's playing out? Are you leading in in certain areas? Could you give us an idea of what your take is on a skills based org?
Eloise Walsh: Yeah. Interesting. Okay. So I think we are definitely on a journey with it. We don't have it all figured out. But I do think that especially when you mentioned early career talent, when we think about our you know, we can't always reference, like, you know well,
Steve Lewis: first
Eloise Walsh: of all, you should never be referencing how many years of experience. But, you know, like, somebody has somebody done it all before? Give me an example when you've, you know, sold a multiyear deal or whatever. Like, I think now, we've started to get a little bit smarter. Again, looking at trends of, okay, our, you know, emerging sales organization, You know, who are the top performers, and what is it that makes them really great? Like, it's not their past company a lot of the time. Although, of course, you know, having some exposure to SaaS does help. But, like, I think when we got to the crux of it and we started to really drill with the hiring managers, we kept hearing this word grit. Oh, resilience. Grit. Yes. But when you really when somebody keeps saying grit, everybody that that kinda can mean something
Steve Lewis: But that was in, like, a word word cloud writ large, grit. Yeah. That's true. You just
Eloise Walsh: need someone grit grit. Right?
Steve Lewis: Okay.
Eloise Walsh: And so, yeah, that was the the kind of theme of when we went line by line and kind of really kind of ask people questions about what makes, you know, this person a little bit different to this person, or what does this person add to the jigsaw that the others don't? Or you know? And and that came through as a, like, a compelling one, that we really dug into. And I think that really translated when we kind of got into it to, like, resilience, you know, like a learner mindset, you know, all of these things, you know, being able to navigate change. Just yeah. And then then you can build that into your interview. And then, you know, it's not just those five competencies I mentioned of those three excellence factors. It's like then you're kind of interweaving those skills into those behaviors too. So when you're coming together in the critical bit that I didn't get to earlier about the huddle and the post interview huddle Oh, yeah. Where I talk to you know, I've I've met Steve. I think he's great. Thank you. The hiring manager, obviously, but maybe my boss doesn't think so.
Steve Lewis: Probably. Yep. Yep. You're right.
Eloise Walsh: And so maybe what we need to do is, like, really challenge each other.
Steve Lewis: Yeah. In a in a you can disagree and commit. Right? Yes. But, also, it's good to challenge each other in a tangible way. There should be a healthy tension. But to say, I've scored two for Steve. You've scored five. There's there's an outlier there.
Eloise Walsh: Mhmm.
Steve Lewis: Let's look at the game tape. Let's look at the question asked to surface that skill and how it turned up. He crashed when he spoke to you about it. Yeah. But that is not an issue that we've got when we've seen him in other interviews going through and doing this.
Eloise Walsh: Mhmm.
Steve Lewis: So I think it's a, for us, it's a it's it's that that whole scorecard and the debate and decide and wash up, Huddl, as you call it Mhmm. So important, but but also in a way that it can be evidence led and equitable and freedom into the framework to actually have the conversation, and know that that there will be points of difference. And that that's that's a difficult thing to pull off because some people are tough scores and some people are very generous. Right? There's a lot of calibration around that sort of stuff as well. And you don't want the group think of people seeing how other people have scored. There's a certain structure and process that if you follow helps mitigate that type of bias, isn't there? Yep. So talk us through the kind of the the rules of engagement, your your your your your consistency of of of of the Huddl and how it works at Okta.
Eloise Walsh: So I think, best practice would say that, of course, all of those steps beforehand have happened. Right? So everybody knows what their role is going in. They've had a kit assigned to them so they know what questions to ask and what they're assessing against. And then generally speaking, we wouldn't have the hiring manager speak first, and they don't nobody has access to each other's feedback before the interview because they've all got just something different to assess against. So there's no need. And so, they come together. The recruiter tends to run that in collaboration with the manager, but will also kind of steer the conversation sometimes to your point. And just maybe have the more junior member of that interview panel go far first. They don't feel overwhelmed by the the hiring manager saying, yes. I love this candidate, but actually they're sitting there thinking, no. That person wasn't hadn't done very well on this. And then holding people accountable to actually giving facts against what they had been assigned to do. So I might just turn up and be like, oh, I've worked with Steve before, and he's brilliant. He's great.
Steve Lewis: Can't do that anymore. That doesn't work. It doesn't work. And that whole, I'm not something's off the culture fit. I mean, you can't do that's not feedback you can give anyone. No. And it's it shouldn't be tied to that because it's ethereal. It's it's kind of it's subjective, and it's also not explainable or defendable and probably quite litigious as well when it comes down to it.
Eloise Walsh: Yeah. And I think you mentioned earlier, like, I think more people will continue you know, as we go through this, and I we actually had someone come to us recently thinking that they had been rejected by an AI bot.
Steve Lewis: Oh, there's a lot there. There's that there's that.
Eloise Walsh: They had, like, it was a genuine recruiter who had genuinely recruit like, reviewed their CV. And we were able to call that candidate and explain, actually, these are the things that were missing from your profile. Right. You know, I'm you know, the recruiter very kindly did it and and built a nice relationship and added that person to a talent pool. So I think it's really important for people to know that that, you know, it's not auto generated, and they are getting something that's meaningful. So, you know, that's why it's so critical. Right? Like, that we do a good job. And I always remember back at LinkedIn, we had that Lou Adler methodology that was rolled out. I don't know
Steve Lewis: if you remember. I think.
Eloise Walsh: And, it was like, justify the no no more than a yes. Mhmm. And I I do use that quite a lot because I think it's really important.
Steve Lewis: It's ready, and it's no if you have a fire drill, it's there to to as a go to. Yeah. Because, you you're right. That that that type of I own my data. I I I'm going to choose the the the whole bit around cookies and acceptance and all this sort of stuff. I mean and you look at what you're giving away now for AI tuning data, and you don't even wanna get into like for like there. But it's kind of like there is a there's a heightened awareness that people want to feel that they've been treated fairly and with respect. Yeah. And they ghosting's just off. Now we've seen we've spoken to quite a few companies with five thousand hiring managers using Hire Guide. The the the kind of the intention isn't to ghost. It's that the the interview notes, they're just not to scratch. And it that they're like, oh, what did I write? And then they're trying this chicken's going, oh my goodness. So it's almost like if the tech can do some of the heavy lift and pull it out, then you're more likely to give your feedback, and the candidate's more likely to get that. And if it's anchored to skill gaps they've got, they know it's tangible, and they can do something about it. So I I I'm certainly a believer in that that dynamic of the the candidate experience shouldn't just be, would you recommend this to someone at the end? It's almost like, were the questions relevant? Did it start on time? Did you feel respected? All that kind of stuff is important to check all the way through. The the hiring process that you've got, let's look at where you are current state and and and how where you wanna get to. Sell me the dream. So you told me a bit about where you wanna get to. Where where where is it going in the next sort of, the next twelve months for your horizon? What what is the dream?
Eloise Walsh: So, you know, I'm gonna answer your question in a minute, but there there is something that was really, springing to mind as you were talking then, and it was like like interviewer enablement. A lot of the time, people just don't know how to interview.
Steve Lewis: Managers haven't been trained a lot of the time. They're really good
Eloise Walsh: at what they do. Time.
Steve Lewis: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Eloise Walsh: And and and so I think we don't ever really step take a step back and think about, like, the foundation of what needs to be in place, and people really need to understand how to run an effective interview.
Steve Lewis: Correct.
Eloise Walsh: And so, yes, we do have interview training, but we're actually relaunching that, this fiscal. Very exciting. It's gonna be I don't wanna use the word mandatory because that's not fun. But if you are going to be part you know, have the privilege of, you know, being part of helping us build this organization, then you need to have completed, a very important
Steve Lewis: It's accountable. You've gotta be accountable. Yeah. I love it that then it's what's candid at wait time. Actually, part of your performance review, whether you exceed the expectation is that you you've actually gone back and given I don't know. I don't wanna talk about mandating, but you can if you if your if your talent is your number one operating priority, then the business command and control can be, we're gonna set it up so we really care about the candid experience. Yeah. And we really care that the talent team and the hiring managers get each other. There's often a disconnect, and and often it's like, oh, don't don't get it. Or why have you put this person through? Well, because they hit on five of the skills we said were important, and we asked those questions we said were important. They answered the way we said that they should answer. So we're gonna put them in your calendar. They're precedable. Right? So it's it's almost like knowing and being honest with yourself that there are quite a few things that need to be synced in in line with each other, and it's not always the case.
Eloise Walsh: No. No. And that and that's why we really do wanna get, like, the foundations right. I think, we're we're kinda resetting on that. And then, you know, another bit of, like, accountability, I guess, is that this year in EMEA, we had our new GM join, a chap called Matt Allard. He, worked with, my peer, in in HR and I to build a people leader VMT. A VMT for us is our strategy. So it's our vision, method, and target.
Steve Lewis: Okay.
Eloise Walsh: And we all have them individually. But
Steve Lewis: So KPIs, OKRs. This is the something that you a true north star that you can
Eloise Walsh: You're held accountable to Steve to making sure that you, are, really thinking about your people best practice. And part of that is, you know, always, you know, having pipelines of talent and being actively engaged in collaborating with your recruiters to reach out to candidates. And so we we started that work about six months ago. And in that time, we have seen at least a minimum of a three, times three accept rate of in males. So when we're reaching out as
Steve Lewis: a high leading indicator, isn't it, really?
Eloise Walsh: Yeah. So, like, we're seeing that a a much greater, response rate.
Steve Lewis: An open door because they've already kind of, the the field's already been seeded, and they they they've they've got that there. So when you in the moment when they need it, they can turn that on.
Eloise Walsh: Yeah. Yeah. And being really intentional about who we're reaching out to. What is the representation like in our teams? Do we want to be more intentional about reaching out, to say females as an example? Do we want to be do they are they going to events? Are they sponsoring anything? Are they hosting ERGs? You know, all of these things that are really important to not only reaching out to talent, but also, you know, to employees as well. So,
Steve Lewis: I think it's your talent brand as well.
Eloise Walsh: Yeah. Like, I think they're really engaged. They're really working towards, making sure that they're actively contributing, which is to your point earlier, like, we were laughing about the dream. Right? You want everybody working together in one direction.
Steve Lewis: So let's throw grenade into the dream. Mhmm. Mhmm. Rupesh, you've worked before. It was at work that you worked together.
Eloise Walsh: Yes.
Steve Lewis: He said that the role of the recruiter was going to become obsolete. It's quite a good sound bite.
Eloise Walsh: It is. Yeah.
Steve Lewis: Now can you give me your take on that as to how they'll need to adapt whether what they've done in the past to get them here isn't gonna take them there? What do you think he meant by that, and would you agree with it?
Eloise Walsh: I'd love to hear more. I look forward to listening to that one. And, yes, I do know Rupesh. I I, I joined Workday because of Rupesh, and I'm a big fan. But, yes. So I do think the role is gonna change, for sure. I think the sourcing element of just, you know, being expected to be the person that's delivering is basically obsolete already. I don't think that recruiters alone can be responsible for generating can stake pools because, well, quite honestly, it's, you know, it's my team. I want to find the best talent. Why am I
Steve Lewis: Hundred percent.
Eloise Walsh: Why would I not actively be leading?
Steve Lewis: We're in we're in London. The Metropolitan Police can't keep us safe unless we've got vigilance from the citizens and everybody calling it and everybody having a safe Yeah.
Eloise Walsh: I like that example. Yeah. Yeah.
Steve Lewis: I don't know. Went out on a limb and I was where that was going, Heloise. But yeah. Okay. The police? Why does he bring the police involved? Yeah. But everyone's got an obligation because everybody is an ambassador of the the business.
Eloise Walsh: Yeah. Yeah. You're absolutely right. And I think, so I think that element, like, the the the, tools and technology, of course, can, well, yeah, I don't see the recruiters really needing to do a ton, or even the hiring managers will probably be in a world where they can just be delivered candidate lists or, you know, people generally I don't know.
Steve Lewis: So focus on the human relational side of
Eloise Walsh: Yeah. Like, I think I think the the piece that, is critical, is making sure that we're running, you know, a process that's, like, got is, consistent, that is going to, challenge one another in the right way. Yeah. So I I I do kind of you know, this is the first time I've heard this, but, I'd be quite interested to hear more about what Rufesh thinks.
Steve Lewis: Yeah. So it's it's it's almost the the the current state of of what people do, time and motion study day to day. A lot of it's gonna be copiloted or augmented by the tech. Yeah. But to a point where you've got confidence, we talked about it being confidently diluted, and the hallucinations and asking for a a view on on whether, should I hire this candidate into chat GPT? That is inherent, right, of risk and someone's view of something. So where do you separate yourself so you're making the human expert value judgment versus the tech? I think there's a gotta be a very clear line of sight on responsible AI in place to do the tasks like robotic process automation of scheduling and and and those sorts of things, and then helping you do your job better but not have an opinion on it. Not you know? Or some people were like, no. Let's have AI at the seat at the table. Give me probability. Look at all of our employees and how they performed, if they've got this tenant or this attribute. I mean, how you use it is gonna come under scrutiny.
Eloise Walsh: Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And I you're absolutely right. Like, from the the experience piece, when we sat down and mapped what that journey really felt like, for Okta, we definitely identified some areas that we could be doing a lot better. And, you know, like, technology definitely comes into that in helping us enhance it, but, also, like, how do we represent our brands across the whole experience and, make life easier for the recruiters. So, yeah, I I I think, yeah, it's gonna be interesting to see how it evolves.
Steve Lewis: Very, very, very. Let's let's close the loop because we're coming up to time. Let's let's look a little bit about what's next for Okta and how you're gonna grow into the business that you want to be, and that comes down to hiring the right talent.
Eloise Walsh: Mhmm.
Steve Lewis: Talent's your number one operating priority as it was at LinkedIn. Jeff Weiner, the CEO, always used to run the all hands and start with that. How are we getting on with that? So in terms of hiring the right people and seeing how well they perform and learning from those and having the skills underpinned as to the skills you've got now, maybe it won't be the skills that necessarily needed in the future because they do turn over at a really high hyper rate. Could you give me a kind of a view as to, where that that that the business is for attracting employer value proposition, your kind of view on the the the the interview process that that you want to become known for. Is is there anything that you can share? I I'm gonna do that myself because I don't know where this is going. I don't I don't wanna put you in a in a position. I I what I wanted to do is give you a chance to and this is Jackson, so stop this. Okay. I I wanted to give you a chance to talk about what you're growing into
Eloise Walsh: Yeah.
Steve Lewis: Yeah. Yeah. And how you might be able to get there in a tangible way. So maybe you'll have a look.
Eloise Walsh: Let me think.
Steve Lewis: Yeah. Just I think it'd be good to end on something that
Eloise Walsh: Yeah. You're right. It would be. And is has this been helpful, or is it?
Steve Lewis: This is brilliant. Jesus. We've done a lot less than those than me with Rupesh. I don't
Eloise Walsh: mind if I Yeah. But I think it's just because as well, I'm like, you know, when I I have all these things in
Steve Lewis: in your head. No. We're we're we're vibing off each other. It's really good.
Eloise Walsh: Oh, good. Okay. As long as you're happy. Right. Let me think. So where do where do we wanna go? I just want, like we didn't touch all the value stuff.
Steve Lewis: Do you
Eloise Walsh: wanna talk about that or not?
Steve Lewis: I wouldn't mind in terms of how you're manifesting them, how they've been chosen, how you're defining them, how it's rolled out with people. We can finish on that.
Eloise Walsh: Right? Yeah.
Steve Lewis: Yeah. Yeah. Culture and values being important, not just on the wall. I that would be good, actually. And that then could talk about future Okta as to growing in and living your values.
Eloise Walsh: Yeah. And then, we can talk a lot more. I'm nervous about the EVP thing just because Yeah. It has started, and it's
Steve Lewis: gone I know. It's only because on my mind there, I just saw Bobby talking about that the the the the folder in the drawer, and I was like, okay. Let's yeah. Let's let's avoid that.
Eloise Walsh: Be cool to be able to talk about something. But When
Steve Lewis: you've got a story to tell on that.
Eloise Walsh: I'm trying to think what else we could cover.
Steve Lewis: No. I like culture values.
Eloise Walsh: And then the the the bit at the beginning I mean, we can talk about it in a second, but I don't know whether you want me to redo what I was talking about at the beginning
Steve Lewis: as far
Eloise Walsh: as it wasn't really very
Steve Lewis: No. It's all good.
Eloise Walsh: Yeah. No.
Steve Lewis: No. It was really good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Really good. I was You you said something about the Cadet experience, then you were like, oh, I shouldn't yeah. But it was all good.
Eloise Walsh: Oh, was it?
Steve Lewis: It was good. Yeah. Don't worry. Yeah. You didn't it's fine. No. That was good. That was good.
Eloise Walsh: Okay. As long as you have it, you don't think Cool.
Steve Lewis: Okay. So we are here at Wiser headquarters. Wiser is the sponsor of this podcast. They, do surveys. They understand a company's employer value proposition, the promise of who it is, and they lead with the data. Now if we look at the culture and value tenants of Okta that were released in April this year, they're not just on the wall. You've brought them to life. Mhmm. You've defined them. Can you tell us a bit about how you're gonna grow into future Okta on the back of these culture and value tenants?
Eloise Walsh: Yes. That it was just it was actually extremely exciting to see them, launch. You know, I've been at Okta eight years, and, of course, it evolves. And I think these are really clear representation of who we are. So, that was brilliant. So glad to see that happen. And then to your point, like, you need to embed them, that you need to start living them. So all of our people processes have them included. So that's our Okta alignment review. So I would be asking myself and myself review how have I demonstrated those values. And then you as my manager would then be, you know, okay. Well, I've seen Eloise demonstrate, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, and then, like, aligning the work to that. So that's one critical part of it. We also have something called Opto Appreciate, which is like our recognition program, where we can give points out for, you know, somebody doing some great work with you know, to help me or, some great projects that somebody maybe has delivered against. And then you align those to maybe, say, drive what's next. Maybe you've done something really innovative, and you've helped me solve a really big problem. I can give you, you know, five, ten, fifteen, twenty points and a big high five about it. So that's included in, the the kind of relaunch. And I I think, critically, for us in talent, you know, you can't you can't expect recruiters to go out and start interviewing against these values until they really clearly understand them themselves. So whilst they're not dissimilar to what we've done before, we did launch, some workshops for us to kind of brainstorm. How do we see ourselves showing up every day with lived examples of this? And then how do we see others showing lived examples? And how do we wanna start, like, thinking about having these in our interview process? And so we're very, very close, to having, them fully integrated into our interview process. The recruiters, like we spoke about, have already kind of started, building them into the interview kits, and they naturally come out in a lot of our line of questionings anyway because it is who we are. But we are gonna get, like, a lot more refined with what that looks like. And, yeah, I think it's, you know, just how how are we gonna measure ourselves on whether we're doing a good job with it even.
Steve Lewis: And it starts charity begins at home, putting their own champagne as they say. So once you've got that in place, then, then then you can onboard to those. You can performance manage to those. How they manifest, how they turn up in the because we did quite a bit of interesting work where we took your values and dropped it into Hire Guide and then anchored them to the skills and the questions and what to look for in the answers to to bring them to life. Yeah. And it was that was quite a cool exercise from our point of view because, you know, drive what's next, very broad. So we say, what's your definition of that? And then we can tune the data down a little bit more. But having that aligned definition across the business so there's no confusion about reading the rules or under interpretation Yeah. Is gotta be a big part of the work.
Eloise Walsh: Yeah. It is. And, yeah, I mean, I I thought it was super what, you guys showed me as an example of what could be done with it. It's very cool.
Steve Lewis: Well, great. Well, thank you for coming in.
Eloise Walsh: Yeah. No.
Steve Lewis: Thank you. To see you, and, that's it.
Eloise Walsh: Yeah. Okay. Can we, maybe talk about I just wanna make sure that Yeah. Bit at the beginning where I'm talking about Okta is actually
Steve Lewis: You're not I'm not swinging it.
Eloise Walsh: Do you mind? No. No. Just because I think, that's
Steve Lewis: the bit
Eloise Walsh: Do you
Steve Lewis: want me to, sort of how did it lead in? What was the it it was introduce yourself and tell us about Okta.
Eloise Walsh: I think I did a shitty job, to be honest, of,
Steve Lewis: Oh, yeah.
Eloise Walsh: Of Okta and then even myself. Do you think I should have gone into more detail, or was just saying I'm at Okta alright?
Steve Lewis: No. I think you explained what Okta is and why it's important today. And your you talked I thought you did a great job because you talked about the customers. I can remember them now.
Eloise Walsh: Oh, okay. So you didn't think that's a bad job.
Steve Lewis: Not at all. And then you talked about who you are, and you talked about the client the the companies that you've worked with, and it aligned really well. I was lucky to be intimidated. I was like, alright, Power Player. I was like, okay. Let's take that down a bit. I'm Steve, and I was at Total Jobs ten years.
Eloise Walsh: I don't think I did talk about where I was from.
Steve Lewis: You did. Did I? You talked about the companies that you were you were at. Now, if you want to, we can just have an old go at it.
Eloise Walsh: Do you mind? Because then I I, it will play on my mind otherwise.
Steve Lewis: So I'll just do the well, should we just start again? Welcome
Eloise Walsh: to Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Steve Lewis: So welcome to Wiser HQ. We're in Farringdon. It's a pretty cool and trendy office space here. We can see LinkedIn where we both worked, over the road. We can see Okta where you work now just down the road as well. I'm delighted to have you here, Eloise. So I've worked with Eloise at LinkedIn. I'm managing director of Hire Guide. We have ten LinkedIn alumni. Actually, we've got the band back together, and we practice skills based structured interviews. So we've got a number of different talent execs coming on to talk about their relatable experience, how technology is impacting what they do, and where they're going next with their business. Be great if you could introduce yourself, Eloise. Tell us a bit about Okta and a bit about your career tenure to date.
Eloise Walsh: Oh, well, thank you for having me. Nice to be back together again after all these years. I actually saw, I think it was, like, thirteen years ago that I joined LinkedIn
Steve Lewis: Wow.
Eloise Walsh: Into this world. Yeah.
Steve Lewis: Yes.
Eloise Walsh: That can't be right, actually. It's gotta be longer. But, anyway, I'm
Steve Lewis: gonna go start. LinkedIn should keep you honest on that. It's like one thing you can do, a work anniversary.
Eloise Walsh: It's good for
Steve Lewis: a work anniversary.
Eloise Walsh: So, hi. I'm Eloise. I am the senior director of recruiting for EMEA, for Okta, very cool brand. If you haven't heard of us, we are the company who, works to free anyone to use any technology. Big bold statement. But, essentially, what that really means is, we're trying to make sure that all of your digital experiences are secure. And so you probably know us, or might know us, for logging into your applications every morning at work. But if you haven't done that, maybe you don't even know that you've been having a digital experience that was powered by us. Maybe you've, you know, booked a flight. Maybe lucky you. Maybe you've traveled through Dubai Airport. Maybe you, you know, had your takeaway last night with Just Eat. So, you know, we've got nineteen thousand customers, an eighty billion dollar addressable market, and we've been on a journey for a while now, since two thousand and nine of becoming truly iconic. And it's been beautiful to see over my time there about how we've evolved. And a lot of the success that we've had and what have kept me at Okta for so long is, our passion for our people. And so, I'm delighted to be here to talk about the thing that I love the most, which is recruitment. And, yeah.
Steve Lewis: Thank you for being here. We're gonna have a a number of stories as we navigate our way through your experience today. Tell us a little bit of your about your experience. Obviously, we have Rupesh who's coming on from ServiceNow. You worked with him at Workday, I believe. Mhmm. So tell us a little bit about what brought you to up to. What where have you been before? What have you been doing so far?
Eloise Walsh: Yeah. So I started my career in recruitment out, back in an agency, like most recruiters, and, worked on the upgrade from two g to three g for
Steve Lewis: Two g was a thing?
Eloise Walsh: It was. Yeah. I
Steve Lewis: just saw some mid twenties, so I don't know anything about that.
Eloise Walsh: I know. I just I saw someone's eyes just sort of roll around yesterday when I said it. Two g. So, yeah, two g to three g, big piece of work there. That was awesome. And then I joined BlackBerry, so Research in Motion, and that was when we were all nuts for BBM. Yes. And they were exploding all over the world. And so, I did a lot of work with them, and and it was, yeah, fantastic work with some of the best people, in my career actually there. They had a great people team, and left left BlackBerry when things maybe didn't look so great, and joined LinkedIn where, of course, I met you. That was awesome. Now I have to say, like, LinkedIn was, a real eye opener for me just because of the marketing mindset that you applied in your everyday there, naturally, but also the collaboration that you had with your hiring teams. Like, they've really leaned in. Like, nobody was doing that at that point.
Steve Lewis: Great.
Eloise Walsh: You know, I think that we were just kind of at the cusp back in kind of two thousand eight, two thousand nine of, starting to view recruiting as not just, you know, order takers, but, you know, being advisers to the business. And and that's evolved, but LinkedIn were really ahead of the curve on that.
Steve Lewis: Early. Early. Yeah.
Eloise Walsh: So that was awesome. And then, after my contract finished at LinkedIn, I went over to Yahoo, which was wild. Marissa Mayer had just joined. We had, Googlesque processes, for an organization that had never had any rigor around hiring before, so that was super interesting. And then I met Rupesh, actually. And, I was like, I've gotta work for this guy.
Steve Lewis: I I like that.
Eloise Walsh: Ah, yeah. He'll like that. Yeah. I did really wanna work for him. I wanted to learn best practice from Rupesh. I knew that if I kind of took, like, what might be viewed as maybe a sideways or a backwards move, out of, like, my the manager role that I had at Yahoo and went and worked for Rupesh, I'd be kind of building the foundations of understanding what, what at the time we called reckless recruitment, you know, like having hiring pipelines ready to go bam, bam, bam Yeah. No no matter what the eventuality and being a real adviser to the business. So that was awesome. And then I joined Okta, and, you know, the rest is history,
Steve Lewis: I believe. As they say. Well, thank you. I'm looking forward to getting into the conversation with you.
Eloise Walsh: Lovely. Thank you.
