Steve Lewis: So welcome to the Hire Kind podcast. This is sponsored by Wiser at the headquarters in Farringdon. Good to see you again after twelve years. It's been a been a been a minute as the Americans say.
Roopesh Panchasra: It's been a last twelve years ago. That's the last time we were sat together
Steve Lewis: Yeah.
Roopesh Panchasra: Doing something similar.
Steve Lewis: Yeah.
Roopesh Panchasra: Very younger, a lot slimmer
Steve Lewis: Please.
Roopesh Panchasra: But your smile is still exactly
Steve Lewis: the same. I'm yours. I'm yours. I'm yours. I'm yours. I'm because we're enjoying what we do. Right? That's half the battle. That's it. So, yeah, that was in twenty twelve when you were at Expedia, and we were, I was at LinkedIn, and we were talking about the potential economic impact of hosting it in London, having the games there. Yeah. So that was a a a great way to get to know each other. And and, obviously, our careers, we've, we've we've ebbed and flowed and changed along the way. I'm the managing director of Hire Guide, which is the skills based structured interview business. And, I'm hosting the Hire Kind podcast with TA leaders and execs like yourself. Why don't you tell everybody a bit about who you are and what's happened in those last twelve years?
Roopesh Panchasra: Yeah. Gosh. Twelve years. So what's happened? So right now, as of January this year, I'm part of the ServiceNow employee base, which is just an incredible opportunity working for an organization that's, doing everything that ServiceNow is doing. I rejoined my CEO. I was at SAP for many years. Bill McDermott was my CEO.
Steve Lewis: Right.
Roopesh Panchasra: And he is now just creating an incredible opportunity for the employees at ServiceNow. So, yeah, I've been here for the last ten months, and I I play I wear a few hats. So I lead the team responsible for all of our leadership hiring, at all levels and functions, and then also all of our go to market hiring. So anything sales commercial related at all levels sit within, the teams that I support.
Steve Lewis: Great. That's, a big new gift given to you recently. They Absolutely. Cover that. And also changes the pace a bit from the executive tap on the shoulder search type mentality dynamic to a more of a volume where you don't want to really compromise on the standard of of the people coming in, the high caliber, because you're hiring more. Right? So the focus there of getting that right must be part of what you do next year.
Roopesh Panchasra: No. It's a good point. It's two very different stars, both part of the TA family, if you like.
Steve Lewis: Yeah.
Roopesh Panchasra: So I do wear sort of one hat with the exec piece, which as you know, it the volume's not as high as the other functions, attention to detail, the more senior levels, passive candidates.
Steve Lewis: Yes.
Roopesh Panchasra: And then, the go to market piece, equally passive candidates with the kind of individuals that we would go after. But, yeah, you're right. Lot of dashboards, lots of numbers, looking for themes and trends, but, you know, equally incredible organizations, we just sort of do it in a
Steve Lewis: slightly different way. So zooming out a little bit in terms of making sure you've got the the best people that represent, embody the brands, the culture, the values of the company. Mhmm. The the kind of the role of the recruiter per se being the touch point that talent meets at that that kind of should I am I right for this role? Am I not? Let's look at how that recruiter role has evolved a little bit over your tenure, not just at ServiceNow, but at Uber, at Expedia, at SAP, and the number of different roles you've
Roopesh Panchasra: Yeah.
Steve Lewis: You've had in your in your in your career. If we look at twenty twelve and what I recruited the day to day then, has it changed much?
Roopesh Panchasra: It has changed. Absolutely has changed, and there's a few points that I can share. And we'll go to how it will change exponentially over the coming years. But, yeah, it has. I mean, I think if you look at the genesis of internal teams being developed, quite often, it was people that are gonna transact on that recruiting process.
Steve Lewis: Right.
Roopesh Panchasra: Whether we're looking at applications, whether we're looking at referrals, whether we are going out to market and looking passively, it was a process transaction.
Steve Lewis: Yeah.
Roopesh Panchasra: So we would do an evaluation of the individuals, bring them in, introduce them to the business, and, you know, form part of that journey, albeit at the very top end. It's changed dramatically. I mean, the role of the recruiter and the opportunity for individuals to have a say, provide advice, give guidance, consult is absolutely part of the journey that recruiters have been on. So now you see the role of the recruiter as someone that's very much part of the business. Yes. We're part of the people team, but we should understand who we're supporting Yes. The culture of the business, the type of hiring managers that we're recruiting for. And it's not just about the experiences that you've had and where you've worked, but we're looking at, like, all the data points. Like, who are they? Where have they come from? What are their decision drivers? What are they passionate about? And really having far more influence on who's gonna be right for the organization.
Steve Lewis: That that's such a an insightful positioning, the business partner sitting next to them and understanding what their needs are and what good looks like. Almost calibrating in a safe space of what a great person might be for that role, and also not future proofing, but future reading yourself to the skills that are beyond the horizon. Are they coachable? So there's that difference between the kind of the relatable experience from the situation that they've had before to the kind of the behavioral piece. How do you go about approaching what what a high caliber candidate would be for a particular role with your with your recruiting team? Do they have, like, a methodology? Do they break it down? Do they get agreement and alignment from the rest of the business? Is there some sort of procedure process?
Roopesh Panchasra: Yeah. That's a really good question. I don't think any two companies do it the same way, quite honestly. There's loads of research to suggest your previous experiences
Steve Lewis: Yeah.
Roopesh Panchasra: Aren't a predictor of future success. So if we believe that, and I do to a certain degree Yeah. That said, you're only gonna get the opportunity to come and read for the part based on the experiences that you've had. So it is a qualification criteria Okay. Often. Oh, yeah. We'll talk about skills in a second, but it is a qualification criteria. It's because right now, if we think about the exec piece, if we have a mandate to go after, I don't know, an SVP of marketing or an SVP of engineering, we're an enterprise software company. We deal with the biggest organizations and customers on the planet. Yes. We are at the forefront of technology, and we are creating meaningful changes for the customers that we work for and work with. Yeah. There are very few companies that fit that criteria. So more often than not, how most companies would operate at an exec level is let's go and find someone that's done it. The accomplishment of having had that in that success record. Look.
Steve Lewis: I've done that before. I've taken the company public before. That's kind of a quite a tangible
Roopesh Panchasra: Yeah. Thing. Right? Absolutely. I mean, quite often, it's because there's a level of confidence that they've made the mistakes. They know what not to do. True. They've scaled a business.
Steve Lewis: Yeah. That's
Roopesh Panchasra: true. They've seen expansion, whether it's revenue expansion, geographical expansion, product expansion. So if you've seen that at companies that we admire, that we compete with, that have a footprint in the space that we are operating in, you would like to think that they would have a head start coming into an organization that's on a similar journey.
Steve Lewis: Understood. Do you think that provides I don't wanna say a false blanket of comfort. But as you said, past performance is no predictor. Look at the stock market, and you get all those wonderful small prints in your investment advice. Right? Yep. It earns you the seat of the table. As you said, you can read for the part. So what does that mean that there is less of a need for the skills to be endorsed and validated during that type of interview when you go further up the business?
Roopesh Panchasra: Look. I always ask the question, which is kind of controversial. Do you have to have done the job to get the job?
Steve Lewis: Who are you asking that to?
Roopesh Panchasra: Anyone that would listen.
Steve Lewis: Okay. Right. Okay. Okay. Okay.
Roopesh Panchasra: Random people that I meet in the pub in the evening. No. Do you have to have done the job to get the job? And if you think about how recruiting has always ever been done.
Steve Lewis: Yeah.
Roopesh Panchasra: More often than not, it's yes. Because Yeah. How else would you know? How else would you know whether they can do the role? How else would you know who to call? How else would you know, whether referral is relevant or not? So the way we've always got about doing this and the way I was trained in the first ten years of my career in search, that's how it was done.
Steve Lewis: Yes.
Roopesh Panchasra: We would speak to clients to say, we have an opening. Someone has left. We're creating a a new position. There's an org change. We need the world's best marketeer or engineer or product leader. Well, we're gonna go find other people that have done exactly that, that are world beating and incredible organizations that have scaled, that have illuminating highlights of their career that we can showcase to our clients to say, this is what you asked for, and we're presenting to you people that can that that have done exactly what you're asking for.
Steve Lewis: Yes. Yes.
Roopesh Panchasra: And as a client, as a client Safer bet. It's a safer bet. And sitting on the on the search side, you know, it's just like going into a restaurant and asking for a meal. You sort of wanna get what you ask for.
Steve Lewis: Yes.
Roopesh Panchasra: If someone turns up and said, I know you ordered the salmon, but here's a Kiev. And this is why I think you're gonna like it.
Steve Lewis: No one like you know your audience. Thank you for being relatable to me. Right. I I I know no one wants to be surprised or or bait and switch. Right. I totally get that. But but do you think that means then and I'd love your optics on this from from from the exec level. Do you think that means you need to speak to some of the senior folk in the business and say, if we carry on ordering our same meal, then we're gonna get the same kind of experience, and there's not gonna be that challenge mindset. And the skills that are needed now might be transferable from people that have done something here. So so it sounds like could be a bit of an education you're constantly doing within the business as well in terms of what what good looks like.
Roopesh Panchasra: We're on a journey. And as I said, like, you asked me, how has the role of the recruiter changed in an advisory capacity over the last twelve years since you and I last did this? It it's clearly changed dramatically. And the role that we play, the influence that we have, the tables that we're now at Yes. The conversations that we're having, the interactions that we have, and the ecosystem across our organizations, like, we're we're making a far bigger splash than we ever have, which is incredible, partly down to enthusiasm and and just curiosity, but partly because, you know, talent is key to any organization's success. And all of a sudden, you know, organizations have realized the importance of of the TA function. But equally, like, the next two years, I think, gonna have just as much change as the last twelve years have.
Steve Lewis: So so let's get into that together a little bit. Evidence based, data driven decisions are always best. Right?
Roopesh Panchasra: They get
Steve Lewis: they get you out of I'm not to say CYA, cover yourself. But, you know, you wanna be able to say this points to this. This is a more of an informed reason tangible decision Yeah. Rather than that gut feel. But, of course, we've had that gut feel, and the gut is made up of billions of interactions that you've had yourself that you're bringing to the party. Right. So I I'd be interested to see when when you're saying that TA is getting more than ever before of their share of, attention and respect across the business, it's what what's in the recruiter's toolkit in terms of actionable insight and metrics so she can really help course correct and calibrate on what good really does look like for this particular role that they didn't have back in twenty twelve Right. They maybe have now. And what will we hope for moving forward as well over the next two years as you mentioned?
Roopesh Panchasra: So a few things. I think, things like talent analytics, things like talent intelligence, things like location strategy and
Steve Lewis: Yeah.
Roopesh Panchasra: And looking at talent communities and total addressable markets. Everyone is doing it. Like, if if if you're part of a TA organization and these, data points you're not sharing with, the businesses that you're supporting, then you're you're already behind. So I think that's almost a given. That's table stakes. That's table stakes.
Steve Lewis: Everyone there's a there's a flag. Right? If you're not doing it, then that's a worry. That's a huge
Roopesh Panchasra: red flag. Okay. And that wasn't around when we last spoke. Correct. But but that's almost, again, table sakes.
Steve Lewis: Yep.
Roopesh Panchasra: But I think there's if we're thinking about data points of influence, we are now in a position where we can test the hypothesis that you don't have to have worked, for example
Steve Lewis: Mhmm.
Roopesh Panchasra: I'm in enterprise software. Do you have to have worked in an enterprise software organization and scaled and been successful in order to be able to be successful in another enterprise software organization? Now Got it. Got it. Quite often, you more often than not, we've been trained to say absolutely yes because of
Steve Lewis: Yes, ma'am.
Roopesh Panchasra: What we'd already spoken about. You've proved that you've been successful in an organization that's quite often difficult to be successful in, in the right space, in the right domain. So therefore, surely, you've got a head start coming into our org. That's the influence that we have because I don't believe that's always the case. You and I both know some incredible leaders that have never stepped foot in an enterprise software environment, that have been wildly successful in the environments that they're in, and I would argue could continue to be successful irrespective of the industry sector that they choose to step into. That's something that doesn't come naturally to most organizations because
Steve Lewis: You're correct.
Roopesh Panchasra: As a hiring leader, if I'm hiring and I've always hired the same way and I've been incredibly successful doing it, Who is my recruiter to tell me I need to think about things very differently?
Steve Lewis: Good. So you've outlined that the role of the recruiters fundamentally changed, the day to day. I'm not talking about time emotion studies in terms of what they do, but the operational heavy lift of the admin, that burden, seems the promise to have gone away with tech a little bit more. Could you explain a bit about the role of recruiters you see across your org and the changes that you've seen so far?
Roopesh Panchasra: Yeah. Very good question. The controversially, again, the role of the recruiter will become obsolete in its current form. And whenever I've said that in the past, especially to my team members, you know, it's
Steve Lewis: it's It's a little disconcerting.
Roopesh Panchasra: It it's slightly because Yeah.
Steve Lewis: I bet. I bet.
Roopesh Panchasra: Well well well, because I think everyone, given what's going on in our space, understands the reason why I make that statement. But it can be very unnerving to know that this is something I've chosen to do, and I've chosen to do it over the last decade or two or three. And I'm now being told by my my leader that this is gonna change fundamentally for you. See, I I love that.
Steve Lewis: I love that for two reasons. One, Reid Hoffman, the founder of LinkedIn, wrote a book called The Alliance. Yeah. Shifting the dynamic between the talent and the business and constantly iterating and earning that the loyalty. And and almost saying you're you're almost in permanent beta. You're or beta. You're constantly learning and iterating. So, the the second reason is that on day one of LinkedIn, they say, welcome to the business. Mhmm. And when you leave LinkedIn, your career trajectory would be like that, and that would be the delta of what you've learned. And we're, like, sitting there going, this is day one, and they're talking about us leaving. Wow. Again, very much to your point, it's a bit of a moment where you kind of think, okay. Right. I do have to earn the right to be here to keep investing in myself. You invest in me to get these skills that I need. But, actually, let's not just settle in and think more of the same, please. Mhmm. My role is gonna constantly be changing, and I wanna change and be ahead of it as well. So to say, walk into the business, your role's gonna be obsolete. Love that stuff.
Roopesh Panchasra: Yeah. And and that's the approach that we now need. We need just like with any other business, if you if you're thinking about engineers Yeah. That are constantly having to rewrite code. If you think about salespeople that are constantly changing their sales methodology, how they go to market, how they're pitching their products. In the same way, we have to evolve as an organization, as a function, and especially with the obvious topic with the emergence of all the AI adoption and functionality that's gonna that has landed in our space. Yes. Why our role is gonna change and why it could become obsolete is just like with anything else. If you're that individual that understands change is coming and gets up in the morning and says, you know what? I'm gonna embrace it. I'm gonna get ahead of it, and I'm gonna get mastery skills
Steve Lewis: Mhmm.
Roopesh Panchasra: That the new technologies that are gonna change the way I do my work, then you will continue to have a fundamental role to play in your organization.
Steve Lewis: I like it. So you're now qualifying and saying, what you do in the role may become obsolete. The role itself, you'll be the expert in the loop using and orchestrating all of this good tech to give good value back to the business. So the current role will be obsolete, but, actually, the need for that type of thing in the business won't as long as you leave from the front.
Roopesh Panchasra: Yeah. Look. For years, we've been talking about the talent adviser being strategic, influencing decisions Yeah. Getting ahead of demand Yeah. Looking at strategies to help build out all design. But quite often, it's on a job description. It's a nice to have. But in reality, with the speed at which many organizations work
Steve Lewis: Yeah.
Roopesh Panchasra: You default back to I'm here to fill jobs. Yes. And I'm following the process that I've I've used that's been very successful for me over over a huge period of time. And you know what? That's the value most business leaders feel that we're here to do. This is what they feel our role is. Understood. I have openings. I have needs. My business needs to grow. Where's my recruiting team? I need help.
Steve Lewis: Got it. So there is an opportunity to level up. And if you get the tech done right and it supports and augments you, it does the heavy lift so you no longer have to type take notes and they see the top of your head as you do your chicken scratch stuff during the interview. That's almost topic extracted and and and linked to the roles and the the skills and the questions and answers. So there's certain kind of tactical tools that can come into play Right. So you can become more relational, more human again, and add your human value even though the AI is prevalent. If you want to. Okay. Talk me through that.
Roopesh Panchasra: It well, like I said, like, I I'm very fortunate to be in a position in an industry that I I absolutely love what I do. To the annoyance of many of my friends, I love what I do. And I devote far too many hours. I commit far too much time, primarily because I just thoroughly enjoy what I do. Yes. But if I'm being told I need to do things differently, if I wanna continue that same level of impact and enjoyment, then
Steve Lewis: Yes.
Roopesh Panchasra: I'm gonna do it because this is what I wanna continue to do. This is what I've always trained
Steve Lewis: to do. You've got over yourself. Your ego and vanity goes to one side and says, okay. You you this is gonna change. How can you help me change? And then you're on that path. So that that's good. But that's not always the case. Some people are stuck in their ways.
Roopesh Panchasra: Well, this is it. And if you think about some of the let's just think about some of the components, some of the AI components that we already know about Yes. That everyone's talking about, that quite frankly, Jensen, the NVIDIA CEO, was the at ServiceNow's knowledge conference. He was on stage, and he was just he is an incredibly charismatic leader. And he had said, generally talking about the AI machine, he said many organizations are sort of standing on the platform watching the AI train shoot by. And they know it's the AI train because it's got big glowing signs all over it, and they're waiting for something to happen to them. They're waiting for an impact for AI to have. Okay. The TA organization is exactly the same. Everything you read, every blog that's written, every every interview that's done, the AI topic is mentioned. But TA leaders are almost waiting for AI to happen to them.
Steve Lewis: Happen to them. Right.
Roopesh Panchasra: What what does it mean? Because it's coming, and we need to be ready. Or what Jensen had said is, get on the train. Like, don't watch the train go by. Get on the train. If and number one, it doesn't seem as fast when you're on the train than when you're watching the train, which is a brilliant analogy.
Steve Lewis: That's a great idea.
Roopesh Panchasra: But you're also immersing yourself in it.
Steve Lewis: And
Roopesh Panchasra: so if you think about a few things, chatbots. You can have AI chatbots that will now help any candidates find out as much as they want about a position. They will keep you updated on that interview process if you're part of the interview process. And, generally, the worst thing that can happen to most candidates, all research suggests, is you're ghosted, recruiters are not responsive, or, generally, your application isn't prioritized.
Steve Lewis: Yes. That's true.
Roopesh Panchasra: All of a sudden, you've got an AI chatbot that keeps you updated every step of the way to ensure the candidate experience is optimized and the candidate is engaged. If we just take that one component as an example
Steve Lewis: Yes.
Roopesh Panchasra: That can revolutionize the experience for everyone involved. Agree. Agree. I'll take I'll give you a second point, and I've got a few, so stop me. Number two is, if you think about how applications are screened.
Steve Lewis: Yes.
Roopesh Panchasra: So the subjective nature in which recruiting is still done at many organizations is still very prevalent. You can have the latest gimmicks and technology and tech stack in your TA ecosystem. Yeah. But, ultimately, when an application comes in, let's just put passive candidates to one side. There's lots of research to to suggest if the recruiter does not recognize the last two companies that you've been employed at
Steve Lewis: Okay.
Roopesh Panchasra: The chances of you getting an interview are zero. Wow. How can that be right?
Steve Lewis: I totally agree. Because that's the gut feel of the recruiter, the the comfort of, oh, I recognize that. I know what it stands for. If they've done it there, they're good. And that's an immediate feel, but it goes against the the fact that those transferable skills, that person, has has so much more to give than that initial gut reaction from the the CV or SMA. And how will how will tech level the field there then mitigate that bias that's inherent?
Roopesh Panchasra: Well well, there there's clearly bias in the process at many organizations. Yeah. Like, we try and mitigate it. We're recognizing
Steve Lewis: Never gonna get down to zero.
Roopesh Panchasra: Just inherent Never gonna get down to zero. But if you had a job description that has a thorough appreciation of the skills needed, the experience that's required Yes. The highlights of your career, the scale of the operation you should have led, then in theory, you should be able to have automated matching based on not the companies that you've worked at, but the skills and experiences that you've gained over the years.
Steve Lewis: Got
Roopesh Panchasra: it. That's a filtering process that will be very powerful. Ultimately, it's still an individual at the end that makes the decision. But, if you if you in some parts of the world, we get a thousand applications per position that we post. That's it. There is absolutely I would need a team of a few thousand to be able to get through each individual application that comes in. Yes. So a tool that allows us to filter, to try and remove as much subjectivity into the process as possible.
Steve Lewis: Okay. So it it it help You're moving the subjectivity. You're you're bringing you're pushing to the front of the queue those that actually have the skills match, skills, obviously, tangible you have and what you don't. And then you can have a a more relational conversation with the candidate once she begins begins the process. But there some people are allergic to being judged by a nonhuman. Almost that that they they say, no. Don't record this interview
Roopesh Panchasra: Right.
Steve Lewis: Because I don't know what's gonna happen to the transcript. Others are like, actually, show me you're working out. You're not letting me into the club. What's your door policy? I really wanna see that this has been done fairly. And I don't know whether compliance regulation will catch up. Maybe it will. There's some, laws legislation going through in in California at the moment about Yep. AI making, predictive recommendations based on on the data inputted. Yep. You're always saying that the the human will make the decision. What we're doing is we're we're we're filtering out distribution of volume, those that aren't eligible to protect perhaps are working that country, which is a key, yes, you need to be. Right? So you're using the tech to focus on the ones that are eligible to hire. That's what that's where because there's there's obviously a a line between how how far down that path the tech
Roopesh Panchasra: go goes for you. Yeah. Totally. And I think, you know, when this sort of matching exercise happens, the danger is the predictive analytics, which I'll come to in a second. But the matching process could be just as much about the skills that you've gained at the organizations that you've worked at Yes. As what you've achieved and the experiences that you've had.
Steve Lewis: So Which might be hidden if you just see the company name and you think I don't know that. Totally. Okay.
Roopesh Panchasra: You know, an AI model could look at my profile to say, thirty years of experience. This is where I've worked. These are the organizations that I've been in. I've been through a few IPOs. I've been I've worked for these leaders. I've had teams of this size. Here's some of the functions I've led. Yeah. Should be able to ascertain what are the skills that I have a mastery level at or I must have had a mastery level at Yes. In order to be in a in order to have been successful in the companies that I've been in.
Steve Lewis: Love it. So these are inferred from probably because if you've done that, then you probably were there at that time with that lead. With all the kind of the big metadata data and the large training models, it can be inferred. And then during the interview, you validate and you endorse the skills. You can say live. Yeah. In terms Rupesh has got five out of five for executive presence. Right. In fact, that you know, absolutely. And the way he does that are these tangible skills and these methods. So it's it's almost getting to the top what what you wanna make a call in, but but then validating and and assuring yourself when you get that through that NTU process, they do actually have that. Yeah. So it's a copilot, really.
Roopesh Panchasra: It helps you out. That yeah. That's exactly it. I I think that we're on that journey. So I I would love to be able to be I would personally love to be able to be approached by one of the exec recruiting team at some point in time at ServiceNow to be able to say, hey, Rupesh, even though I lead that team. But, hey, Rupesh.
Steve Lewis: This is very meta now. I'm trying to because yeah. Exactly.
Roopesh Panchasra: There's an incredible opportunity Yeah. In corporate strategy, in Yeah. Talent marketing, in design that the system suggests you have a sixty five percent match for based on the skills that are inferred from the years of experiences that you've had.
Steve Lewis: We're talking turkey now. So this is global mobility, talent transformation. It's also looking pragmatically. It's, succession plans.
Roopesh Panchasra: That's exactly it.
Steve Lewis: And and that's almost okay. Let's think about this now. If we level up, there's a there's a big worry as to taxonomies of skills. Do we need to go through every role we've got and work out which skill is relevant for that role and do it manually? And then it's let's audit and and the diagnostic of where those skills are now today. How do we uncover that sort of stuff? The the fact that you've just said that you'd like to be approached with something that you maybe hadn't considered before that's worked out that this might be you like this on Netflix? You might like this on Netflix. Right? There are certain paths in making missions in the machine learning. That's that's, that's a big leap forward towards a full skills based organization where you can make those informed decisions, and strategically change the direction of
Roopesh Panchasra: the company. Right? Totally. I mean, it's scary, but it's so exciting to be. To feel that not only potentially would your candidate population increase. So you're able to access Yeah. Far more people for any specific position than you ever have before. Not only will it absolutely promote internal mobility because all of a sudden, we're looking at the skills that you have, the matches that potentially we have for other types of roles within the organization
Steve Lewis: Yes.
Roopesh Panchasra: And, and being approached to be considered for for certain opportunities. So all of a sudden, I don't have to necessarily wait for my manager and my leader to leave in order for me to progress within the organization.
Steve Lewis: And that's less of a flight risk for people that think, oh, I'm waiting for that person. I I've got nowhere else to go. Yeah. And that's quite an epiphany for them to think, actually, I'm valued. Yeah. And there are a number of different paths the company is kind of thinking about for me. That's a much more wedded approach to getting loyalty in that way.
Roopesh Panchasra: Totally. My, my CEO called it currency. And why he got he he said, Rupesh, if you've been at the organization for three, four, five years, however long it may be
Steve Lewis: Yeah.
Roopesh Panchasra: And you've been successful in a company that's very ambitious, so quite difficult to be successful in like most growing firms, then you've earned yourself a currency. You know how to be successful. You've built connections. You have relationships. Your leadership trust score is high Yes. And and and you have executive sponsorship. So everything suggests you know how to be successful here. This is not about you know how to be successful in talent acquisition. You know how to be successful in the ecosystem that we've developed. So, internally, I think that skills approach would be far more prevalent. At least sort of the first phase would be, here's a known quantity. Here's someone that understands the dynamics and knows how to navigate the organization.
Steve Lewis: Yes.
Roopesh Panchasra: And, of course, it's a risk. If I'm the receiving manager, and if you think about the scenario where my recruiter that's supporting my position says, the marketing position that you're recruiting for, here's Rupesh's profile, who spent x number of years in talent acquisition, but here's why I think this is someone that we should consider. Now there's so many points that we could discuss there, like the audacity almost of the recruiter to be able to say, I feel really good about Rupesh as a candidate for your role, but also the receiving manager that's so not used to being offered candidates or or or presented candidates that don't fit the profile. It goes back to do you have to have done the job to get the job. Skills will allow us to think about that in a completely different way.
Steve Lewis: Correct. Because matchmaking, dating, buying a property, it's a transaction. There is a a transfer of confidence, and whether the the the you're matching the needs. And in talent acquisition and bringing talent in, you're you're you're informing, and you're also selling as well. The the fact that we're well, this isn't a bait and switch. We won't let you down. This is what you're gonna be walking into. And for marketing to understand an audience, there's a lot of transferable skills there that that almost then you need to sit with the hiring managers and and and have that conversation and say, okay. The caliber of bench of talent that we're looking for here, what what what do you assume it should be? Okay. And then how do you break it down to the sum of its parts and say these things are important for that role? Do we agree? Yes. Good. And if those skills are important for that role, what questions should we ask together during the different rounds to determine whether the candidate has those skills? And more importantly, what are we looking for in the answers? Yeah. Because oftentimes, you ask a good question, but, I mean, they've gone on the days of those fancy questions of how many golf balls in the seven four seven try and trick you up. Thank goodness. Now now it's like a a bit of a look. We're gonna do a structured interview. We'll ask the same questions from everybody. Yeah. But we're gonna let's agree between the three, the candidate, the hiring manager, and the talent team on what a good answer looks like for this. Yep. And let's have a scorecard that's clean, and we can say whether the skills have been met or not. That that changes the whole dynamic, but it's not the only thing. Yeah. You're gonna need the skill enablers, the behavioral, the coaching learning mindset, that that the, EQ to to to know your blindsides and the awareness there. You'll need the whole shebang, but this is a a very strong bed bedrock that we're seeing is is really helpful, especially if someone's referred someone for something. Mhmm. You don't wanna lose a friend. If someone if we press you, you said go to that restaurant. I go there. I get food poisoning. You wanna say, how was it? I was like, it was okay. You know? I'm polite. That was alright. But wouldn't it be great to say you recommended her? There's these skills gaps here. She should go away and fit. You get the feedback. It's much easier to give when it's tangible and anchored to something like that. Yeah.
Roopesh Panchasra: But that's the beautiful new age, the new world of a recruiter. Think about those conversations that we will have very soon
Steve Lewis: Yeah.
Roopesh Panchasra: That we've never been able to have. Number one, like, maybe we didn't read enough. We weren't informed enough because we're used to doing things in a certain way.
Steve Lewis: Yes. Yes.
Roopesh Panchasra: But AI will enable us to be able to find time, find space to to to play a completely different role. So if the interviews are scheduled for you, if there's interview analytics Yes. That give you the data points to help you with your decision making, If it's objective rather than subjective ways of making assessments and filtering
Steve Lewis: Yes.
Roopesh Panchasra: If there's skills taxonomy that you've agreed upon and there's recommendations being made to you to say, here are five individuals from very different backgrounds that potentially could be relevant. If you've got some predictive analytics in there to suggest historical hiring data suggests, this is what could work. Now there's a whole host of question marks around bias in there, but these tools are readily available.
Steve Lewis: Yeah.
Roopesh Panchasra: This has been the role of the recruiter up to now. Correct. And so all of a sudden, you're able to have a completely different conversation if you're willing to learn and willing to embrace what's coming. Good. So all of this huge
Steve Lewis: roster of information, you've it it's data. You need to turn into actionable insight. Right. I need to do something with it. So if you look at, retention, as a as a as a a key driver that that most businesses want to get down, they don't wanna lose their high caliber talent as a flight risk, how will that apply to to retention?
Roopesh Panchasra: Yeah. Really good question. So, I mean, if you think about exit interviews as a good example Yeah. I've been involved in either conducting or, seeing the output of exit interviews at many of the organizations I I've been at. And, of course, there are times when things just don't work out. Either, the employee doesn't the company is not right for the employee or or vice versa. Yes. But a common theme in all of the companies that I've been at, when it comes to exit interviews and reasons why people choose to leave is very rarely because they've lost interest or confidence in the companies that they've been employed by.
Steve Lewis: Okay.
Roopesh Panchasra: But instead, it's often career progression. It's learning. It's expansion and growth, and where you're in an organization that people want to stay in, so therefore not many people are leaving is a great positive. But what the the byproduct of that is very few positions become vacant. And if if I've been at an organization for three, four, five years Yes. And thoroughly enjoying what I do at a comp at an organization that's prominent and recognized, then people are reaching out to me.
Steve Lewis: True.
Roopesh Panchasra: And so quite often, it's somebody else is taking a bet on me, maybe in a role that's slightly more senior than the one I'm in, and the opportunity to grow at the same rate within my existing organization isn't there. And and, again, it comes back to, I've always been operating in this function, so therefore, I have to wait to go up in the function Yeah. I know best.
Steve Lewis: Correct. Yeah.
Roopesh Panchasra: Yeah. Now if we think about how skills will help and if we think about retention and then succession, potentially there's so many different paths my career can take. So that alone opens up the aperture around what should what could I be considered for, and what should I consider as my next step?
Steve Lewis: Understood. If you look at the the the most recent viral post in and around career progression was the Nike or Nike CEO. Did you see that
Roopesh Panchasra: link? I did.
Steve Lewis: You know when you can see and you've been somewhere and you've been promoted, and that LinkedIn does a great job, Obviously, I work there. Of of of of of actually showing your promotion within the current company. Yeah. And and he went from very entry level to CEO. And that that is not a linear path he took at all. No. And, actually, arguments are some of your best sales development reps in the business will be your next CRO. Right. They will work their way up and recognize, and they will have the senior, kind of revenue.
Roopesh Panchasra: I love seeing that. Isn't that interesting?
Steve Lewis: Love seeing it. It works. We believed in it, and it's fine. It's worked. Yeah. Right? So you what you've just said there is that there might be a different path for me, one that I'm just thinking is so linear, and I shouldn't get disheartened and I shouldn't be a flight risk because of it. If the tech reminds me or the business is enlightened enough to see me as a toolkit of skills that I'm constantly iterating, learning, and adding to as well.
Roopesh Panchasra: Yeah. There's a different dynamic between the talent and the company. Yeah. The Nike CEO example is a perfect one. And, you know, it wasn't a linear path, reinvented himself in a number of different guises throughout the journey, and and and look where he is now. Unfortunately, those examples are few and far between. Yes. And and it's a brilliant one
Steve Lewis: Yeah.
Roopesh Panchasra: To show what's possible. And if you think about amplifying that Yeah. Across your enterprise, where you've got, you know, a whole population of people moving sideways, upwards, across Yes. Learning new skills, utilizing the skills that they've developed over the years, but enhancing them further within the enterprise. Wow. What I mean, just imagine what resumes will look like in years from now.
Steve Lewis: Yes. The the whole formatting of it, and we know the gamification, and you can apply to to three thousand jobs in an afternoon, you know, using some of these tools now. It's the the actual format, it it'll be much more tailored in the words of the language of the target audience you're applying for, left showing that the skills you you've you know, I've got this. You should back me. This is why I'm right. So I I think it would probably invert itself and be much more led with, the accomplishments that's come from those skills and what's next on the learning kind of horizon for that person as well. It's the the the format today is not fit for purpose, and it won't will continue to be less and less diminishing as
Roopesh Panchasra: we go on. Right? Yeah. I mean, you don't want the rigidity of a defined path. Like, even if it is, I can go from TA to marketing to corporate strategy. Like, I don't want that predetermined because I'm learning skills. I'm meeting new people. I'm interacting with different leaders. I'm speaking to new customers and clients every day. So this is a live morphing of of, like, abilities that's being enhanced every day.
Steve Lewis: And and intentional as well. So the COO of LinkedIn, Dan Shapiro, he ran, the talent solutions commercial org. He realized he wanted to be COO, but to do that, he had to go diagonally into product. He needed to know the product. So he ran product for a certain period. Right. Now he's the COO. So it's that acknowledgment to say, if I wanna be at the table and speak with some credibility and some relatable examples, I need to be close to what is essentially a SaaS product LinkedIn in terms of the licenses it sells. So it's that acknowledgment. You're you're you're almost saying that the business has got a bit of a duty of care to say, heck, this way. Follow me. Live down a different route for you than you would work and expect to be for the night. Okay.
Roopesh Panchasra: Oh, I love that. This way. Follow me. That that's exactly it, isn't it?
Steve Lewis: Yeah. Trust me. Trust me. I've got you coming this way. I mean, whether you open the door for somebody and you've got the power to go after you and all that sort of well, let's leave that. Yeah. This way, follow me is like a warm kind of handhold. It's like we've got you. We care about you. Yeah. That's, an difficult thing to deliver, I imagine.
Roopesh Panchasra: You're a valued member of this organization. Follow me. Trust us. We're gonna help you grow. Yeah. And so I think there's two perspectives depending on which side of the table you're sat from a candidate's perspective or an employee's perspective. How encouraging is it to know that the work that you've been doing is hasn't gone unnoticed? Recognition key. Yeah. Thank you.
Steve Lewis: Noticed. Yes. Yes.
Roopesh Panchasra: Yeah. Fantastic. And, what a great opportunity to to grow and morph and learn new skills and define a a a a number of paths that could be available to me. But I think from a employee's perspective, this is where there needs to be a shift in thinking. Okay. Because I get it from an individual's perspective that's getting the opportunity to learn new things. Yes. But, ultimately, the the employer has to have the patience in order to think, maybe about tomorrow and not just for today.
Steve Lewis: Got it.
Roopesh Panchasra: So if I need you to be productive on the morning of the day you start, how likely is that if you've never fully done the job before, but intelligence suggests you have the skills to be successful?
Steve Lewis: Yes. So then there needs to be a bit of a preamble or kind of a learning packet that associates that talent to say that this this this is a the probability everything's pointing to that, but we think they'll go beyond it. But you have to have a little bit of nurturing in this area to lean in in this bit here. It's almost like that talent advisor sitting in with our own manager going, we believe this is a superstar in your team, and they're gonna push you beyond where we ever thought. Yeah. That said, morning of day one, that's not gonna be the case. So it's expectation
Roopesh Panchasra: that you're gonna be You know, you need to surround them with whatever you whatever's available to you, whatever's at your disposal to ensure that you're you're you're encouraging success, whether it's training, whether it's buddy schemes, whether it's rotations. Like, this is really all about building a scalable business for tomorrow's success, not just for the morning that you start. And I think there's something there that has to is it a give and take? I'm not sure. But, certainly, there's a trade off in order to be able to retain the best employees at the organization, watch them grow, invest in, you know, the the the ecosystem that you've helped create. Yep. And, you know, if the ambition of the organization is to dominate a space forevermore, then you have to think about tomorrow.
Steve Lewis: Yeah. Disrupt yourself. Reinvent yourself all the time. Because what got you here isn't gonna take you there, and that's quite difficult to some people to reconcile, especially if they're early on. You talk about talent for a scale up and and what the business, what ServiceNow has become, what NVIDIA has come. You mentioned they're very different businesses now than they were in their inception in terms of the the traction and the scale of of the growth. So, in terms of kind of tying this up and putting a bow on it Mhmm. Rupesh, as as you do, What would you say would be the the the kind of the the top things that a talent exec should not be keeping her up at night with, but should be on the radar to solve for in in the next twelve months? And could you hazard a kind of some routing or direction to how you're solving for some of that within your current role?
Roopesh Panchasra: Yep. Okay. So a whole host of things. I think we need to, the TA tech stack is of primary importance. I think too many organizations have a very complex tech stack that they've built on because they want best of breed product. And all of a sudden, when you look at the ecosystem on some kind of map, the intention was to simplify and it's, in in fact, the complete opposite.
Steve Lewis: Sort of a Frankenstein stitch point solutions together. The interoperability isn't there.
Roopesh Panchasra: Exactly.
Steve Lewis: Okay. But for quite precarious, but it's been built onto that and snapped into that. And now the one thing at the bottom has gone to shaking a little bit. Yeah. Okay.
Roopesh Panchasra: Exactly that. Make it simple for the people that you expect to be Yeah. Your recruiters that are gonna evolve and be, you know, where we know the recruiting organization can get to. Number two is don't watch the AI train go by from the platform. Get on it. It's not as fast once you're on the train, and you'll you'll hopefully be surrounded by people that are prepared to help and advise, and you need to embrace it. Got it. Don't wait. Number three, don't wait for it to happen to you. Everything I read is this is what could change to our industry. This is what is likely to happen, and this is how our roles may change. You can influence that. Build an innovation team, test product, learn about the outside in, what other organizations are doing well, and embrace it. Take a risk, make some change, run some pilots, and test things out because this is coming. So whether it is candidate assessments, whether it's automated interviews, whether it's predictive analytics, whether it's removing bias, whether it's skills, this can all be done today. Not easily because I don't think there's anyone out there doing it comprehensively well, but there's many firms that have embraced it that are sort of forefront of of thinking and the early adopters of of AI. And then lastly, just like with any industry that goes through masses of change, you can either choose to wake up one morning and embrace it and step in and learn new skills irrespective of how long you've been doing this Yeah. Or not. Because the role of the recruiter will become obsolete in its current form. Rupesh, thank you very much. Thanks, Steve.
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